I wish scientists would just make up their mind.

This forum is for actual topics of discussion that do not fit the above categories.
Locked
User avatar
Toecutter
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:21 am
Location: Oregon
Org Profile

Post by Toecutter » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:13 am

How likely is it that, just by chance, a bunch of organic molecules would clump together to form a DNA strand? How about an RNA strand (all types)? What's the probability of forming an enzyme to "unzip" the DNA strand for duplicaton if I just take the primary elemental constitutents of organic chemistry and mix them in a test tube? How likely is it that, just by chance, we'd evolve that elaborate system of codons and anticodons that ensure that we don't fuck up the DNA transcription and duplication process too badly?

How about the process of protein synthesis from DNA via transfer RNA? How likely is it that all those amino acids would just somehow find a way to arrange themselves in patterns that could be easily re-created for continuing protein synthesis?

How about the myriad of ways by which proteins organize themselves?

I'm not going to force one religious belief over another. I'm not really practicing any religion.

I do, however, believe that there must have been some external, intelligent force that guided the creation of all these systems. (Or, if not "guided", at least provided the catalyzing event.)
Random chance could produce these systems, given a large enough quantity of primordial soup. Now, here's the real question: was there enough primordial soup and chemical reactants around on the Earth to make the probability of this evolutionary development of simple lifeforms feasible?

If we have a very specific list of everything required to create the first DNA strand, along with a calculation of the probability, we can then determine with some basic math how much of the reactants are required to produce the first DNA strand. Then, through geological records and computer simulations, we could get a rough estimate of the actual amounts of reactants on the Earth at the time life was formed. This is at least a starting point, and we can finally prove something, rather than have a bunch of Frosted Flakes playing their "what if" games to keep the scientific method out of the mainstream.
GoatMan
was here!

User avatar
KhayotiK
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: Sesame Street.
Org Profile

Post by KhayotiK » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:59 am

Hehe, spontaneous creation. :lol:

Evolution. :lol:

Creation. :lol:

WE COME FROM ALIENS FUCKING MONKEYS! THAT IS THE ANSWER! NOTHING ELSE MATTERS!
Image Image

User avatar
kthulhu
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:01 pm
Location: At the pony stable, brushing the pretty ponies
Org Profile

Post by kthulhu » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:53 am

How about the deist philosophy, i.e. God made the universe and then abandoned it, or plays no part in it at the very least?
I'm out...

User avatar
Kirbyoto
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:43 pm
Location: The place that I be at. Yarr.
Org Profile

Post by Kirbyoto » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:14 am

Maybe...

But all you "Hey, how likely is it that random stuff happened to make us" people...

WHERE DID GOD COME FROM?

I mean, he has to have come from something. Everything did.

But maybe the universe just works weird. Who cares?
Image
You know what? I don't even care anymore.

User avatar
Savia
Chocolate teapot
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 3:40 pm
Location: Reading, UK
Org Profile

Post by Savia » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:30 pm

Toecutter wrote:
How likely is it that, just by chance, a bunch of organic molecules would clump together to form a DNA strand? How about an RNA strand (all types)? What's the probability of forming an enzyme to "unzip" the DNA strand for duplicaton if I just take the primary elemental constitutents of organic chemistry and mix them in a test tube? How likely is it that, just by chance, we'd evolve that elaborate system of codons and anticodons that ensure that we don't fuck up the DNA transcription and duplication process too badly?

How about the process of protein synthesis from DNA via transfer RNA? How likely is it that all those amino acids would just somehow find a way to arrange themselves in patterns that could be easily re-created for continuing protein synthesis?

How about the myriad of ways by which proteins organize themselves?

I'm not going to force one religious belief over another. I'm not really practicing any religion.

I do, however, believe that there must have been some external, intelligent force that guided the creation of all these systems. (Or, if not "guided", at least provided the catalyzing event.)
Random chance could produce these systems, given a large enough quantity of primordial soup. Now, here's the real question: was there enough primordial soup and chemical reactants around on the Earth to make the probability of this evolutionary development of simple lifeforms feasible?

If we have a very specific list of everything required to create the first DNA strand, along with a calculation of the probability, we can then determine with some basic math how much of the reactants are required to produce the first DNA strand. Then, through geological records and computer simulations, we could get a rough estimate of the actual amounts of reactants on the Earth at the time life was formed. This is at least a starting point, and we can finally prove something, rather than have a bunch of Frosted Flakes playing their "what if" games to keep the scientific method out of the mainstream.
Actually, that wouldn't help as the probabilities are influenced by so many factors they are basically impossible to calculate. And there most likely was no 'primordial soup', although the exact events that lead to the first RNA organisms are not agreed; an Fe-based 'froth' is one option.

RNA can theoritacally self-replicate, though, and it's certainly catalytic, and under one definition, that makes life.

I still believe that natural selection is unlikely, though, in a real-world environment, to have much effect. I'd say that some kind of guidance or impetus behind early events in evolution is not an unreasonable hypothesis.
"A creator needs only one enthusiast to justify him." - Man Ray
"Restrictions breed creativity." - Mark Rosewater

A Freudian slip is where you say one thing, but mean your mother.

User avatar
Nestorath69
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:50 am
Location: Utah right now. SLC region. I'll fight you. Come on!
Org Profile

Post by Nestorath69 » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:45 pm

SSJVegita0609 wrote:
CaTaClYsM wrote:Riddle me this. If I came from non'living matter. Why and I cognative of my existence? I should logically be like a machine or a rock rolling down a hill. Only in motion because I'm simply a mass of matter obeying the laws of physics. And if that were the case, I wouldn't be cognative of my existence. However, it is an indesputable fact that I am. So tell me. Why am I?
Because our neurons have sodium-potassium pumps that are far more advanced and interconnected (not to metion abundant) than those of most basic animals. Couple that with our nifty subdivided brains and diverse amount of nuerotransmitters (dopamine, seratonin, etc), throw in the hippocampus and the hypothalmus, and you got yourself a winning, congnative organism. How did we get all this you ask? Well, thank good ole natural selection and mutation + a couple hundred million years for that one, those of us born with better brains were able to survive better than those of us who weren't, and thus only the better brainers were able to pass on their genes to their offspring.

Study some biology mofo.

GO SCIENCE!
Ask any mathmatician to compute the possibility that sentient life evolved naturally, and they will tell you that's on par with a freak tornado touching down in a junkyard and when the dust clears, you have a fully assembled and fueled Cadillac Seville. Or a printshop exploding and in the remains everything has been assembled into a completely accurate dictionary. Or a bunch of watch parts shaken in a can and forming a watch that keeps perfect time. The list goes on and on.

Do the math, mofo
Site whoring:
http://forums.megatokyo.com - for anime, manga, RPG, Real Life, Politics, science, Spam, Video games, Music, et cetera.
www.deltaanime.com - I'm a Mod, baby!

User avatar
Savia
Chocolate teapot
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 3:40 pm
Location: Reading, UK
Org Profile

Post by Savia » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:47 pm

Actually, that's not entirely accurate, to be fair to SSJ- the number of trials are a lot, lot larger than one.

I do agree with you, but that's why I didn't want you to misrepresent the information about it for whatever reason.
"A creator needs only one enthusiast to justify him." - Man Ray
"Restrictions breed creativity." - Mark Rosewater

A Freudian slip is where you say one thing, but mean your mother.

danielwang
Village Idiot
Joined: Fri May 03, 2002 12:17 am
Location: Denver, CO Banned: Several times!
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by danielwang » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:42 pm

THe chances of life naturally evolving, if possible, is 100%.

It's like how Murphy's Law works.

But still:

If the universe was created out of a random seed state at all, the chances of anything are 100% (mathematically speaking), if no impeding factors are existent (no other factors in play).
Let's say the chances of that are flipping a fair coin head-up 2^65535 in a row, or 1 out of 2^65535.
You have infinite time! Whether flipping a coin takes half a second, one second, or two minutes, is mathematically ireelevant. Time is a negligible factor , because no

Does that mean that the chances of our destuction are 100%, the chances of God existing 100%, and the chances of Kamoc making a blockbuster AMV 100%?
No, no, and no. Because there are other factors into play now. We have consiousness, debatable as whether it is truly random or not, but in all, we have controlling factor over that.

Does that mean that, if this is all true, that green bug-eyed aliens (sentient or not) do exist? Yes.
It depends, though, on how the universe works. If we do have a infinite universe (TRULY infinite now just very big or getting bigger) (which we might not have) and infinite mass that is balanced equally, then yes. Given infinite frames and time, they will come to exist, eventually.

But here's the rub:

Given that the universe, was, at one time, a null state, something must have happened to produce mass or quantifiable "seed" state. External intervention is possible, although arguably impossible as the factor would have to have been local. A possible theory is that the universe existed as a chaotic seed state, naturally developing the system required to produce quantifiable matter.

But then we get back to the question in the first place. Ok, if the universe (data) was evolved out of a seed state that was random, where did the laws of physics come from?


My two pence, adjusted for inflation: $0,00.

User avatar
Tab.
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 10:36 pm
Status: SLP
Location: gayville
Org Profile

Post by Tab. » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:49 pm

1. When in the height heaven was not named,

2. And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,

3. And the primeval Apsû, who begat them,

4. And chaos, Tiamat, the mother of them both,--

5. Their waters were mingled together,

6. And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;

7. When of the gods none had been called into being,

8. And none bore a name, and no destinies [were ordained];

9. Then were created the gods in the midst of [heaven],
From the seven tablets of creation (Enuma Elish), the Babylonian creation story.
◔ ◡ ◔

User avatar
azulmagia
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:27 am
Location: Canada
Org Profile

Post by azulmagia » Thu Nov 27, 2003 7:53 pm

Nestorath69 wrote:Ask any mathmatician to compute the possibility that sentient life evolved naturally, and they will tell you that's on par with a freak tornado touching down in a junkyard and when the dust clears, you have a fully assembled and fueled Cadillac Seville. Or a printshop exploding and in the remains everything has been assembled into a completely accurate dictionary. Or a bunch of watch parts shaken in a can and forming a watch that keeps perfect time. The list goes on and on.

Do the math, mofo
Ah that's bullshit. That's the theistic theory, only God is the tornado. What do we know about the origins of life and the conditions for life? Nothing! Because there is only one "system of life" we know - Earth-based, DNA/RNA protein based life. When we begin to encounter extraterrestrial life-systems, then we'll be on to something.

Besides, the only really viable theories of the origin of the universe is that a) it came from nothing and b) it always existed. Neither of these require God, indeed, God is a pure luxury. Pantheons such as the Hindu, Greek etc. can co-exist with these schemes, which explains the popularity of b) in India.

Locked

Return to “General Off Topic”